Recommending the best synthetic oil

[Mark_888]

I've used Mobile1 in all my previous vehicles and have never had any issues with Mobile1

I assume you use Mobil 1, not Mobile 1.

 

[RSPEC429]

Not sure where you got the information that Toyota's 0W-20 is different than Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20. To the best of my knowledge, Toyota does not specify which brand of 0W-20 oil must be used, they just specify and API certified 0W-20 (knowing full well that the only such oils are synthetics).

I used to participate on BITOG forum, but it has turned into nothing more than a rumor mill with wildly inaccurate information. I would not advise anyone to give any credence to what is posted there. I am sure there are "some" accurate things posted there, but the accurate ones are in the minority, and there is no way to know which is which unless you know the answer in advance (in which case, why even ask the question?).

There are several ways I know what is in the oil:

• We know that Castrol Syntec uses 100% group III synthetic (hydrocracked mineral oil) as its base stock (not counting small amounts of additives) since Mobil sued them in an attempt to not allow them to use the "synthetic" moniker for doing so. Mobil, which at that time used only Group III (PAO) and Group V (Esters) in their Mobil 1 product, lost the lawsuit which caused a major upheaval in the synthetic oil market.
• We also know that Pennzoil Platinum is a Group III synthetic, since a former Pennzoil employee who used to post on that forum (I believe since deceased) said point blank it was 100% Group III hydrocracked mineral oil (not counting small percent of additives). Same applies to Valvoline SynPower, and many others, but I don't have a source for that handy.
• We also know that after the Mobil vs Castro lawsuit, Mobil 1 starting using a blend of Group III, IV, and V components, instead of Group IV and V only. There was no way to compete against Castrol if they had not done so.
• The reason we know for certain that Mobil 1 is not a 100% Group III synthetic like those mentioned above is that some countries require on their MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) that the amount of mineral oil be disclosed (which includes Group III hydrocracked mineral oil). Japan is the country MSDS that I found for Mobil 1 0W-20, and it shows that it has 30-40% mineral oil (which in this case is Group III hydrocracked mineral oil) and the rest (60-70%) is Group IV (PAO) and Group V (Ester). Other motor oils that are a mixture of Group III/IV/V include Castrol Edge, Pennzoil Ultra, and a few others (but I don't have the exact percentages like I do for Mobil 1).
• Companies like Amsoil actually market three different levels of synthetic, which includes various different amounts of Group III, IV, and V components.
• As a result of the ruling in the above mentioned lawsuit between Mobil vs Castrol (now owned by BP), the judge ruled that a motor oil can only be called full synthetic if it has Group III, IV, or V components only (no group I or II components, as are found in conventional motor oil).

So there you have it--more accurate information than you will ever find in that BITOG cesspool. Obviously, I disagree that the information about what is in these oils is pure conjecture, although admittedly it can be a bit hard to find out accurate information.

Toyota has its own oil formulation. It is a very different oil than M1's 0W-20. Look it up.

Pennzoil Ultra is now a GTX base stock.

 

[Mark_888]

Toyota has its own oil formulation. It is a very different oil than M1's 0W-20. Look it up.

I did look it up. According to the Toyota maintenance web page, any 0W-20 API certified oil will fulfill the warranty requirements. What comes in the containers marked with Toyota logo at a dealer parts department is irrelevant, because you don' t have to use it, so long as you use an API certified 0W-20. As previously mentioned, all 0W-20 motor oils are synthetics, because you can't (at least for now) achieve the 0W with a conventional oil.

Pennzoil Ultra is now a GTX base stock.

WTF does that mean? The only GTX related to motor I know of is the conventional oil brand of that name made by Castrol (BP). Pennzoil is owned by Shell. Am I missing something, or is this just more crap from BITOG?

BTW, Bob died quite a while ago, and his wife runs that website now.

 

[Mark_888]

Toyota has its own oil formulation. It is a very different oil than M1's 0W-20. Look it up.

OK, I found this piece of garbage on BITOG from 2009, that came from Toyota Parts Marketing:

"Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 contains a Toyota specific additive package within it, making it not interchangeable with other synthetic oils of the same weight such as Mobil 1."​

I got news for you bud. No two motor oils, even from the same manufacturer, have the exact same additive package. This is just a bunch of marketing crap to get people to buy "genuine" Toyota branded oil at dealer parts departments instead of getting reasonably priced oil at Walmart. Using Mobil 1 0W-20 will not void the Toyota warranty--period, end of story.

 

[427435]

Part of an oil meeting API standards is being compatible with other API oils. Toyota marketing is conning people evidently-------or their own oil isn't and API certified oil.

 

[Mark_888]

Part of an oil meeting API standards is being compatible with other API oils. Toyota marketing is conning people evidently-------or their own oil isn't and API certified oil.

The one rouge Toyota sales guy didn't say it wasn't compatible, he said it wasn't "interchangeable" because of different additive packages. No where in Toyota official documentation does it say one must use Toyota branded oil. No two oils, even from the same brand, have the exact same additive package. Anyway, all that happened back in 2009 on BITOG (Bob is the oil guy) forum. Unfortunately Bob is dead, and that forum is now a cesspool.

 

[RSPEC429]

I did look it up. According to the Toyota maintenance web page, any 0W-20 API certified oil will fulfill the warranty requirements. What comes in the containers marked with Toyota logo at a dealer parts department is irrelevant, because you don' t have to use it, so long as you use an API certified 0W-20. As previously mentioned, all 0W-20 motor oils are synthetics, because you can't (at least for now) achieve the 0W with a conventional oil.


WTF does that mean? The only GTX related to motor I know of is the conventional oil brand of that name made by Castrol (BP). Pennzoil is owned by Shell. Am I missing something, or is this just more crap from BITOG?

BTW, Bob died quite a while ago, and his wife runs that website now.

The Toyota oil has an extremely high viscosity index at over 200. I'm not arguing that Toyota is requiring only that specific oil. In fact, I'm not arguing anything at all. Go to page three for some good info:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678471&page=3

Toyota oil is not the same as other 0W-20s, period, end of story.

Not GTX, it is now GTL based.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3044595#Post3044595

 

[Mark_888]

The Toyota oil has an extremely high viscosity index at over 200. I'm not arguing that Toyota is requiring only that specific oil. In fact, I'm not arguing anything at all. Go to page three for some good info:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678471&page=3

Toyota oil is not the same as other 0W-20s, period, end of story.

Not GTX, it is now GTL based.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3044595#Post3044595

Toyota does not make motor oil, they buy it from someone else and have them put it in a bottle with a Toyota label on it. Can you provide documentation on the Toyota 0W-20 Product Data Sheet (not just quotes from people on BITOG)? Bottom line is the Toyota warranty only specifies that 0W-20 be used, so that includes any other API certified 0W-20 motor oil, including Mobil 1 0W-20.

Regarding Pennzoil Ultra, yes, GTL (Gas to Liquid) base stock "may" be used, but that is a Group III base stock according to Shell, and I did say that Ultra uses Group III base stocks:

"The GTL base oil is a “really great quality [API] Group III synthetic base stock,” Mark Ferner, Shell’s U.S. Lubricants Group manager, told a media briefing here July 14, 2011."​

What evidence (from Pennzoil/Shell) do you have that GTL Group III is 100% of the components and that there are no Group IV or V in their formulation? I have not seen any marketing information that claims they are using it at all, although I admit it is certainly possible.

BTW, I did go to the BITOG thread you specified, and it is all just rumor, very little facts. No documentation from primary sources (ie, the horses mouth, Shell/Pennzoil).

 

[Mark_888]

The Toyota oil has an extremely high viscosity index at over 200. I'm not arguing that Toyota is requiring only that specific oil. In fact, I'm not arguing anything at all. Go to page three for some good info:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678471&page=3

Toyota oil is not the same as other 0W-20s, period, end of story.

By the way, I found this on the link you provided:

Toyota Genuine Motor Oil is distributed by ExxonMobil. See this Toyota bulletin. The SN bottle bears the ExxonMobil material codes 98KX51 and 98KX52 on the front and back labels, respectively.

It's licensed by API to Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. See the API licensee list.​

By all indications, it is Mobil Super Synthetic, which is 100% Group III base stock. As I mentioned before, Mobil 1 0W-20 is 30-40% mineral oil (which in this case is Group III hydrocracked mineral oil) and the rest (60-70%) is Group IV (PAO) and Group V (Ester). This information obtained from the ExxonMobil MSDS for Japan, which is the only country that I know of that requires disclosure of percentage of mineral oil (groups I, II, and III) in their MSDS.

 

[RSPEC429]

Toyota does not make motor oil, they buy it from someone else and have them put it in a bottle with a Toyota label on it. Can you provide documentation on the Toyota 0W-20 Product Data Sheet (not just quotes from people on BITOG)? Bottom line is the Toyota warranty only specifies that 0W-20 be used, so that includes any other API certified 0W-20 motor oil, including Mobil 1 0W-20.

Regarding Pennzoil Ultra, yes, GTL (Gas to Liquid) base stock "may" be used, but that is a Group III base stock according to Shell, and I did say that Ultra uses Group III base stocks:

"The GTL base oil is a “really great quality [API] Group III synthetic base stock,” Mark Ferner, Shell’s U.S. Lubricants Group manager, told a media briefing here July 14, 2011."​

What evidence (from Pennzoil/Shell) do you have that GTL Group III is 100% of the components and that there are no Group IV or V in their formulation? I have not seen any marketing information that claims they are using it at all, although I admit it is certainly possible.

BTW, I did go to the BITOG thread you specified, and it is all just rumor, very little facts. No documentation from primary sources (ie, the horses mouth, Shell/Pennzoil).

I never claimed that Toyota makes oil. I said they have their own formulation. And yes, the oil is produced by XOM; I'm not arguing that. But the Toyota branded oil and M1 Super are not the same. TGMO has a viscosity index of 216 while M1 Super has a viscosity index of 173. Another telling stat is cSt at 40 and 100 Celsius. At 40, TGMO is 37.38 while M1 is 44.9. At 100, TGMO 8.54 while M1 is 8.6. There is absolutely NO way that they are in any way the same oils. The viscosity index alone tells us that.

TGMO VOA- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2415407&page=1

M1 Super- http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-super-synthetic-0w20.aspx#

Yes, GTL is considered a GroupIII+ base oil but I'm not arguing about what category of base stock it falls under...nice straw man there. But if you don't believe me that it IS a GTL derived oil, simply take a look at the msds which states Ultra is a "Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil..." As I'm sure you know, Fischer-Tropsch is at the heart of GTL production. Another straw man that you threw in is the percentage of the oil that is GTL based...I made no claim that it is 100% anything. I simply stated that it GTL based.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00454792.PDF

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-...-to-Liquids-Fuels-Be-Repeated-in-the-U.S.html

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[Mark_888]

I never claimed that Toyota makes oil. I said they have their own formulation. And yes, the oil is produced by XOM; I'm not arguing that. But the Toyota branded oil and M1 Super are not the same. TGMO has a viscosity index of 216 while M1 Super has a viscosity index of 173. Another telling stat is cSt at 40 and 100 Celsius. At 40, TGMO is 37.38 while M1 is 44.9. At 100, TGMO 8.54 while M1 is 8.6. There is absolutely NO way that they are in any way the same oils. The viscosity index alone tells us that.

TGMO VOA- http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2415407&page=1

M1 Super- http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-super-synthetic-0w20.aspx#

Yes, GTL is considered a GroupIII+ base oil but I'm not arguing about what category of base stock it falls under...nice straw man there. But if you don't believe me that it IS a GTL derived oil, simply take a look at the msds which states Ultra is a "Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil..." As I'm sure you know, Fischer-Tropsch is at the heart of GTL production. Another straw man that you threw in is the percentage of the oil that is GTL based...I made no claim that it is 100% anything. I simply stated that it GTL based.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GSAP_msds_00454792.PDF

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-...-to-Liquids-Fuels-Be-Repeated-in-the-U.S.html

When I ask for official specs on the Toyota oil, you provide me with a post from BITOG, not an official spec sheet. I don't for one moment believe that BS from BITOG. You admit that the Toyota 0W-20 is made by ExxonMobil, but somehow clearly imply it is better than Mobil 1 or Mobil Super Synthetic? Complete BS. I guess you forgot to mention in your original post that Toyota 0W-20 is made by ExxonMobil.

Regarding the Shell Ultra, you are the one throwing up the straw man. I said that Pennzoil Ultra includes Group III and Group IV components, and you said in response that Ultra is GTL based. So what? Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil is a Group III oil, and all I said is that Ultra contains some Group III components. Maybe you are not aware, but MSDS's in most countries do not require listing of Group IV or V components, presumably since they are not considered to be hazardous. So the fact that the Ultra MSDS says it has Fischer-Tropsch derived Group III base oil doesn't tell you what percent of Group IV or V components it has. I can pretty much guarantee you that Ultra 0W-40 (like Mobil 1 0W-40) has a very large percentage of Group IV and V components (in the case of Mobil 1 0W-40 it is about 95% according to Japan MSDS).

Please don't post links to rumors and un-substantiated claims from BITOG to back up your claims. If you have links to primary sources, that is fine, but I am not interesting in the voodoo religious cultists who hang out on BITOG and their so-called objective tests to tell me what the viscosity index is.

 

[Mark_888]

Yes, GTL is considered a GroupIII+ base oil but I'm not arguing about what category of base stock it falls under...nice straw man there. But if you don't believe me that it IS a GTL derived oil, simply take a look at the msds which states Ultra is a "Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil..." As I'm sure you know, Fischer-Tropsch is at the heart of GTL production. Another straw man that you threw in is the percentage of the oil that is GTL based...I made no claim that it is 100% anything. I simply stated that it GTL based.

I just checked all the Pennzoil Ultra MSDS's and the following viscosities make no mention of "Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil""

• 0W-20
• 0W-40

These do mention Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil:

• 5W-20
• 5W-30
• 10W-30

Assuming Pennzoil Ultra is anything like Mobil 1, the reason is likely because the 0W oils contain a much higher percentage of Group IV and V synthetic base stocks than the other viscosities.

 

[RSPEC429]

When I ask for official specs on the Toyota oil, you provide me with a post from BITOG, not an official spec sheet. I don't for one moment believe that BS from BITOG. You admit that the Toyota 0W-20 is made by ExxonMobil, but somehow clearly imply it is better than Mobil 1 or Mobil Super Synthetic? Complete BS. I guess you forgot to mention in your original post that Toyota 0W-20 is made by ExxonMobil.

Regarding the Shell Ultra, you are the one throwing up the straw man. I said that Pennzoil Ultra includes Group III and Group IV components, and you said in response that Ultra is GTL based. So what? Fischer-Tropsch derived base oil is a Group III oil, and all I said is that Ultra contains some Group III components. Maybe you are not aware, but MSDS's in most countries do not require listing of Group IV or V components, presumably since they are not considered to be hazardous. So the fact that the Ultra MSDS says it has Fischer-Tropsch derived Group III base oil doesn't tell you what percent of Group IV or V components it has. I can pretty much guarantee you that Ultra 0W-40 (like Mobil 1 0W-40) has a very large percentage of Group IV and V components (in the case of Mobil 1 0W-40 it is about 95% according to Japan MSDS).

Please don't post links to rumors and un-substantiated claims from BITOG to back up your claims. If you have links to primary sources, that is fine, but I am not interesting in the voodoo religious cultists who hang out on BITOG and their so-called objective tests to tell me what the viscosity index is.

You need to relax. You admitted yourself that not everything on BITOG is bull. The link that I provided you showed a VOA. A VOA is not bull. Again, you are getting away from the argument. If you don't want to believe that TGMO and M1 Super are different oils, so be it. It is well documented that the VI of TGMO is far higher than M1 Super and every other mainstream oil out there with the exception of M1 0W-40; VI alone indicates that they are very different oils. And there you go again with your completely out of context claims. Quote me where I explicitly say that TGMO is better than M1. I do say, two sentences before this for example, that the two oils are different.

I said it was GTL based. You got it right, so what indeed. I really wasn't refuting anything you said. I regret that you misinterpreted my simple statement of fact as an attack on your post.

 

[427435]

Y . It is well documented that the VI of TGMO is far higher than M1 Super and every other mainstream oil out there with the exception of M1 0W-40;

Are you saying the viscosity or viscosity index of TGMOis far higher??

 

[RSPEC429]

Are you saying the viscosity or viscosity index of TGMOis far higher??

VI is short for viscosity index.

http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/viscosity_index.htm

 

[427435]

VI is short for viscosity index.

http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/viscosity_index.htm

??????????????????

The viscosity index of one brand's 5w-30 and another brand's 5w-30 will be very similar (if not identical). That's why they are both rated as 5w-30 oils. So exactly what are you claiming that Toyota claims??

 

[RSPEC429]

??????????????????

The viscosity index of one brand's 5w-30 and another brand's 5w-30 will be very similar (if not identical). That's why they are both rated as 5w-30 oils. So exactly what are you claiming that Toyota claims??

No. Did you even bother to read the article that I provided?

 

[RSPEC429]

More reading.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1327/viscosity-index-improvers

 

[Mark_888]

No. Did you even bother to read the article that I provided?

I don't quite understand the significance of your links. One link is about viscosity index improvers (additives), which are typically not as much needed in a good quality synthetic oil due the high quality of synthetic base stocks. And as the article noted, the more additives put in the oil to increase viscosity index, the more likely those additives will break down, often rather quickly.

The fact that Toyota oil has a very high viscosity index (which you have not proven, since you only provided a quote from someone who claimed that on BITOG) does not mean that it is better oil than another synthetic oil with a slightly lower VI for the following reasons:

• The two different synthetic oils being compared may have a VI that is so high to begin with that saying one is higher than the other is superfluous.
• Oils with a high VI may have achieved that with additives (enhancers) that will typically degrade rather quickly. So unless you know for sure how they achieved that (good quality base stocks vs enhancer additives) then a high VI spec is worthless information.
• It is not always the case that a high VI is preferable. A high VI means there is less variation in viscosity based on the temperature of the oil. Obviously, the viscosity index of a 0W-20 is going to vary less than a 0W-30, but that is by design.
• VI is much more important for conventional oils than for synthetics (especially synthetics with at least some Group IV and V base stocks). That is because conventional oil is much more prone to viscosity break-down than synthetics.
• Bottom line is that the VI spec is not the whole story when evaluating motor oils, and there are typically many more important factors.

People on BITOG seem to obsessed with meaningless or misleading specs, probably because that is the only way that they can determine which oil is better than another, other than tear down two identical engines after 100K miles that were run identically using different oils to see which performed better (which is obviously not practical for most people to do).

Another case in point is the obsession about the "low volatility" spec of Pennzoil Ultra. I have been using Mobil 1 for about 15 years and fortunately my Japanese cars and now my Genesis have not ever used any measurable amount of oil between oil changes (none, zero, zilch). So obviously, aside from the fact that my engines did not burn any oil, no noticeable amount of the Mobil 1 (supposedly with a higher level of volatility than Pennzoil Ultra) I used in the last 15 years ever evaporated, so why should I be obsessed with a meaningless volatility specification?

 

[RSPEC429]

I don't quite understand the significance of your links. One link is about viscosity index improvers (additives), which are typically not as much needed in a good quality synthetic oil due the high quality of synthetic base stocks. And as the article noted, the more additives put in the oil to increase viscosity index, the more likely those additives will break down, often rather quickly.

Those links were not for you. Seems like you just have a thing for going on long, pointless rants.

The fact that Toyota oil has a very high viscosity index (which you have not proven, since you only provided a quote from someone who claimed that on BITOG) does not mean that it is better oil than another synthetic oil with a slightly lower VI for the following reasons:

• The two different synthetic oils being compared may have a VI that is so high to begin with that saying one is higher than the other is superfluous.
• Oils with a high VI may have achieved that with additives (enhancers) that will typically degrade rather quickly. So unless you know for sure how they achieved that (good quality base stocks vs enhancer additives) then a high VI spec is worthless information.
• It is not always the case that a high VI is preferable. A high VI means there is less variation in viscosity based on the temperature of the oil. Obviously, the viscosity index of a 0W-20 is going to vary less than a 0W-30, but that is by design.
• VI is much more important for conventional oils than for synthetics (especially synthetics with at least some Group IV and V base stocks). That is because conventional oil is much more prone to viscosity break-down than synthetics.

Once again, you have strayed from the original dispute. You were claiming that Mobil Super and TGMO were the same oil, and I explained that they are not. If you want to believe that they are the same oil, so be it. As I said a few posts back, quote me where I explicitly state one oil is better than the other. When you do that, I will go away.

And just for good measure, I will post more VOAs from BITOG. It is a long-shot to believe that people are falsifying VOAs over there.

Taken from here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1829467&page=all

And a second VOA on the first page, post one:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1919589&page=1

• Bottom line is that the VI spec is not the whole story when evaluating motor oils, and there are typically many more important factors.

At least we can agree on one thing:

Additionally, when looking at an oil, one must take in to consideration the oil as a whole and not look simply at one attribute.