Recommending the best synthetic oil

[RSPEC429]

There are many other aspects of an oil that would be more important than an oil being at the high or low end of that range.

Hmm, I've said the same thing.

Additionally, when looking at an oil, one must take in to consideration the oil as a whole and not look simply at one attribute.

 

[Mark_888]

Can you explain why these oils of the same viscosity have such a huge variance?

Sure:

1. They don't have the same viscosity. The manufacturer can label their oil to be a particular viscosity, but the API only specifies viscosity ranges for a particular viscosity rating, which are wide enough to have a lot of variation if a manufacturer want to be at edge of the range (either at the low end or the high end). So not all 0W-20 oils actually have the same viscosity (due to API tolerances), nor would they be expected to have the same VI. However, most major brands try to be in the middle of the API range, and are similar viscosities for a give viscosity rating.
2. Some manufacturers want a motor oil to vary its viscosity according the temperature to a greater degree than others, and therefore design their oil to act in such a manor (which is measured by Viscosity Index or VI). An oil with a higher VI does not vary its viscosity as much as an oil with a lower VI according to the temperature. But having an extremely high VI is contrary to the theory of multi-grade motor oil where the manufacturer wants the viscosity to vary more according to temps. However, for some climates, a wide variation in viscosity according to temperature is not as important and a high VI is OK. But most people want a reasonable balance between stable viscosity a high temps, and a very low viscosity in cold weather startups, which means they don't want an extremely high VI.

Assuming that the Toyota oil does have a very high VI (I didn't claim it was false, I just want to see the manufacturer specs, as opposed to someone on BI[N]TOG claiming the specs), and since ExxonMobil makes the oil for Toyota, and Mobil 1 products do not have an extremely high VI (are in-line with most other manufacturers in that regard), that means that ExxonMobil thinks that an extremely high VI is not appropriate for most applications. If you look at the information that you posted about VI for a large number of brands that have a VI range from a low of 157 to a high of 177 (for 5W-30 products), apparently none of the other mainline oil manufacturers think it is important to have a VI near 200 either.

Since ExxonMobil makes the Toyota oil, they are obviously capable of making an oil with extremely high VI under their own brand, but they don't (unless it is some specialty line like Mobil 1 racing oil--I am not sure about that).

 

[RSPEC429]

Sure:

1. They don't have the same viscosity. The manufacturer can label their oil to be a particular viscosity, but the API only specifies viscosity ranges for a particular viscosity rating, which are wide enough to have a lot of variation if a manufacturer want to be at edge of the range (either at the low end or the high end). So not all 0W-20 oils actually have the same viscosity (due to API tolerances), nor would they be expected to have the same VI. However, most major brands try to be in the middle of the API range, and are similar viscosities for a give viscosity rating.
2. Some manufacturers want a motor oil to vary its viscosity according the temperature to a greater degree than others, and therefore design their oil to act in such a manor (which is measured by Viscosity Index or VI). An oil with a higher VI does not vary its viscosity as much as an oil with a lower VI according to the temperature. But having an extremely high VI is contrary to the theory of multi-grade motor oil where the manufacturer wants the viscosity to vary more according to temps. However, for some climates, a wide variation in viscosity according to temperature is not as important and a high VI is OK. But most people want a reasonable balance between stable viscosity a high temps, and a very low viscosity in cold weather startups, which means they don't want an extremely high VI. Since ExxonMobil makes the Toyota oil, they are capable of making an oil with extremely high VI under their own brand, but they don't (unless it is some specialty line like Mobil 1 racing oil--I am not sure about that).

427435, there is your answer.

Mark 888, my post was directed 427435, not at you. Thank you for proving him wrong.

Assuming that the Toyota oil does have a very high VI (I didn't claim it was false, I just want to see the manufacturer specs, as opposed to someone on BI[N]TOG claiming the specs), and since ExxonMobil makes the oil for Toyota, and Mobil 1 products do not have an extremely high VI (are in-line with most other manufacturers in that regard), that means that ExxonMobil thinks that an extremely high VI is not appropriate for most applications. If you look at the information that you posted about VI for a large number of brands that have a VI range from a low of 157 to a high of 177 (for 5W-30 products), apparently none of the other mainline oil manufacturers think it is important to have a VI near 200 either.

From what I understand, Toyota approached oil manufacturers with its specific needs. Exxon accepted. And the resulting oil is TGMO, which is Toyota's oil for Toyota's vehicles. Apparently Toyota values a high VI for their engines.

 

[RSPEC429]

Since ExxonMobil makes the Toyota oil, they are obviously capable of making an oil with extremely high VI under their own brand, but they don't (unless it is some specialty line like Mobil 1 racing oil--I am not sure about that).

In many of your posts, there are undertones to the pros/cons of high/low VI. If you want to debate that, head over to BITOG. I'm not going to take you up on your red herring.

 

[Mark_888]

From what I understand, Toyota approached oil manufacturers with its specific needs. Exxon accepted. And the resulting oil is TGMO, which is Toyota's oil for Toyota's vehicles. Apparently Toyota values a high VI for their engines.

But Toyota does not require their branded oil to be used in order to maintain their warranty, so that is one reason I find this whole "story" be more than a little suspicious. Toyota knows perfectly well that not even most Toyota dealers are going to use Toyota branded oil for oil changes, much less all the other oil changes performed outside of dealerships.

 

[Mark_888]

In many of your posts, there are undertones to the pros/cons of high/low VI. If you want to debate that, head over to BITOG. I'm not going to take you up on your red herring.

I prefer not to post on BI[N]TOG anymore, since is mostly about rumors and many of its members are cultists and other fringe personalities.

But I think my statement below speaks for itself:

Since ExxonMobil makes the Toyota oil, they are obviously capable of making an oil with extremely high VI under their own brand, but they don't (unless it is some specialty line like Mobil 1 racing oil--I am not sure about that).​

Same is true for all of the other major oil manufacturers, such as Shell/Pennzoil, BP/Castrol, Valvoline, etc, etc, etc.

 

[RSPEC429]

But Toyota does not require their branded oil to be used in order to maintain their warranty, so that is one reason I find this whole "story" be more than a little suspicious. Toyota knows perfectly well that not even most Toyota dealers are going to use Toyota branded oil for oil changes, much less all the other oil changes performed outside of dealerships.

As I'm sure you know, Toyota now specs (and back specs) an 0W-20 oil for most if not all of their engines. Why? CAFE probably. Whatever the reason may be however, Toyota obviously values a high VI.

Since ExxonMobil makes the Toyota oil, they are obviously capable of making an oil with extremely high VI under their own brand, but they don't (unless it is some specialty line like Mobil 1 racing oil--I am not sure about that).

Finally!! You have successfully acknowledged TGMO's high VI. I guess the VOAs do speak for themselves.


Are we done here? I feel that I have sufficiently made my point regarding TGMO's high VI.

 

[Mark_888]

As I'm sure you know, Toyota now specs (and back specs) an 0W-20 oil for most if not all of their engines. Why? CAFE probably. Whatever the reason may be however, Toyota obviously values a high VI.

As I posted previously more than once (not sure which thread), my take is significantly different than yours.

Several years ago, Toyota started to specify synthetic oil for almost all their engines in order to maintain their warranty. In the past, the have had sludge problems with many of their engine designs when conventional was used and if people did not perform regular oil changes (as many are prone not to do). Given the number of cars they sell every year, and even if only 5% don't change their oil on a regular basis, that would result in a few hundred thousand people per year with sludge, which was turning into a public relations and legal nightmare. You can Google "Toyota sludge" for more info about this.

However, when Toyota started to specify synthetic, just about every competitive brand salesperson used the high cost of Toyota maintenance against them in selling situations, so it was a marketing nightmare. So Toyota changed the requirement and now they don't say you must have synthetic, but they say you must have 0W-20, knowing full well that for 0W-20 there are only synthetic motor oils available that can meet that viscosity spec. Before that, they specified 5W-20 for CAFE reasons, but you can get a conventional oil with 5W-20 rating, so that doesn't fully explain the current 0W-20 requirement.

Finally!! You have successfully acknowledged TGMO's high VI. I guess the VOAs do speak for themselves.

I never claimed I knew it was false, and I still don't completely accept it without proper manufacturer documentation (which is not provided by posts on BI[N]TOG). But for the sake of discussion, I am willing discuss the issue as if it were true, but I don't really know.

 

[RSPEC429]

As I posted previously more than once (not sure which thread), my take is significantly different than yours.

Several years ago, Toyota started to specify synthetic oil for almost all their engines in order to maintain their warranty. In the past, the have had sludge problems with many of their engine designs when conventional was used and if people did not perform regular oil changes (as many are prone not to do). Given the number of cars they sell every year, and even if only 5% don't change their oil on a regular basis, that would result in a few hundred thousand people per year with sludge, which was turning into a public relations and legal nightmare. You can Google "Toyota sludge" for more info about this.

However, when Toyota started to specify synthetic, just about every competitive brand salesperson used the high cost of Toyota maintenance against them in selling situations, so it was a marketing nightmare. So Toyota changed the requirement and now they don't say you must have synthetic, but they say you must have 0W-20, knowing full well that for 0W-20 there are only synthetic motor oils available that can meet that viscosity spec. Before that, they specified 5W-20 for CAFE reasons, but you can get a conventional oil with 5W-20 rating, so that doesn't fully explain the current 0W-20 requirement.

Guess we'll never know since neither one of us is Toyota.

 

[RSPEC429]

I hope I have contributed something to this thread. I am finished now.

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[Southern Boy]

I have use Wal-Mart Tech 2000 10w30 oil since day one in a 2004 Nissan Frontier with a 1.6L DOHC 4 cylinder engine without any problems.

I think the bottom line is the correct specified or higher grade of oil and frequent oil changes and filters.

I run Synthetic oil (5W30) in my Genesis, but still stick to the 3000k / 6 month rule for oil and filter changes.

Since all oil is manufactured to API standards I feel what brand a person uses is more emotional than beneficial.

Maintenance and attention to detail is the most important issues when it comes to longevity of an engine or any other component of the vehicle.

Statement from most resent oil analyst sent to “Blackstone Labs” for this vehicle. In the comments section a posed the question about different brands and synthetic oil vs regular oil blends. This was their response:

“Your oil sleuthing reminds us of our standard line when people ask what oil they should use: Oil is
oil. It really doesn't matter what you use; all oil is basically the same. The manufacturers would have you
believe otherwise, of course! This SuperTech oil is working just fine in your Frontier and the engine has
matured nicely through the break-in process. Sodium is presumably left over from an oil you used in the
past. No fuel or moisture was found, and the air and oil filtration systems are working as they should (see
silicon/insolubles). Nice engine!”

 

[427435]

Some of the arcane tech stuff, that some of you consider when choosing a motor oil, reminds me of the guy that used a micrometer to measure his wooden fence posts.

 

[Mark_888]

Some of the arcane tech stuff, that some of you consider when choosing a motor oil, reminds me of the guy that used a micrometer to measure his wooden fence posts.

What gets me is when people say things like "that motor oil has a VI of over 200, far higher than almost all other oils." But when you ask them what that actually means in terms of whether that motor oil with a 200+ VI is actually belter than the others with "only" 170 VI (still quite high), they don't seem to really know.

That kind of stuff goes on ad infinitum in the BI[N]TOG forum. They talk about motor oil like a sommelier (wine steward) talks about wine. I am pretty sure some of them use motor oil to get themselves off.

 

[NSXNEXT]

Anyone wanna go halfsies on this.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Pennzoil-550023012-Ultra-5W-30-Synthetic/dp/B00CQ3B7FG/ref=sr_1_9?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1374262861&sr=1-9&keywords=pennzoil+ultra+5w-30"]Pennzoil 550023012 Ultra 5W-30 Euro L Full Synthetic Motor - 55 Gallon Drum : Amazon.com : Automotive[/ame]

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Anyone wanna go halfsies on this.

Pennzoil 550023012 Ultra 5W-30 Euro L Full Synthetic Motor - 55 Gallon Drum : Amazon.com : Automotive

You might make sure the Euro formula won't void your emission control warranty. Catalyst problems, I believe.

 

[Mark_888]

Anyone wanna go halfsies on this.

Pennzoil 550023012 Ultra 5W-30 Euro L Full Synthetic Motor - 55 Gallon Drum : Amazon.com : Automotive

It says "free shipping" but weighs 432 pounds. I bet that if you bought it they would say the free shipping part was a mistake (standard Amazon free shipping of most items over $25).

As already noted, this is a Low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus & Sulphur) oil that meets the following European car specs (but not the specs for most Asian or American cars):

SPECIFICATIONS & APPROVALS

• MB – Approval 229.51
• VW 504 00 and VW 507 00 approvals
• Approved to BMW LL-04 specification
• Porsche C30 approved

According to some quick math (correct me if I am wrong), 55 gallons is 220 quarts, so $1,509.12 would be $6.86 per quart (assuming shipping is free). That is more per quart than Walmart charged when they carried it in 5 quart jugs.

 

[NSXNEXT]

Let me know when you guys get your sense of humor back.
I was searching for a source for Pennzoil Ultra and came across it.

 

[EXBMWGUY]

Let me know when you guys get your sense of humor back.
I was searching for a source for Pennzoil Ultra and came across it.

There's more Ultra Euro out there than non-euro. But you're right, we need to get happy!

 

[Mark_888]

Let me know when you guys get your sense of humor back.
I was searching for a source for Pennzoil Ultra and came across it.

I got the humor, and didn't give you any hell about how many oil changes that would be. But I was amazed that it was so expensive, even in a 55 gal drum. Maybe the shipping is free?

 

[NSXNEXT]

Resurrecting this thread. Looks like Walmart started carrying Pennzoil Ultra again.
I haven't stopped by my local store but it says it's in stock.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-...bucket_id=irsbucketdefault&findingMethod=p13n