I think for many the Lexus is an alternative to the germans and in many cases the Lexus example costs just as much...so its just a matter of preference
That is false.
The LS460 is already over
$20k cheaper than the S Class and once you start adding options, the price differential only grows.
Lexus competes w/ MB mostly at the
$50k and below price-range, but once you get to the $60k+, it's pretty much the other Germans and even then, Audi not as much and even BMW doesn't compete at the highest levels of the S Class.
And it's not like MB has much to offer in the $50k and below price range these days (a C300 4MATIC starts at $41k and once you start adding the kit that buyers want and expect these days - cross the $50k threshold).
So yeah, there are those buyers who want more room than what the C Class or GLC have to offer but either won't or can't spend the $$ on an E Class or GLE - the ES and RX are midsizers at compact prices, hence, they're sales success.
if you factor the cost of the original LS400 to todays dollars it is would be close in price to today's Equus AND Lexus started with a dealer network that set an example for customer service
Yes - so the LS400 was an even better deal than the Equus as it offered a separate luxury brand/dealer network and everything that goes w/ it and yet, wasn't priced higher.
Pretty much everyone in the industry thought that Toyota was subsidizing the Lexus dealers.
If Hyundai had launched the Equus under the Genesis brand from the start and built out a separate dealer network - would have had to tack on an additional $7-8k to the price-tag (if they weren't going to subsidize) and that would have been disastrous.
The Lexus LS offer some significant options...
wheel choices..more colors..more customization than the Equus
Oh gee, paint colors and
wheel choices.
That's just offering a few more options - that's
not customization.
Hyundai, Toyota and the other Japanese don't offer customization and instead offer things in packages as it is a less expensive way of doing things and it i important for them to offer
value (not that the Germans don't offer value in their own way w/ cloth seats, 4-bangers in midsize sedans, FWD for various Audis, etc.)
granted..not as much as the Germans but its not a "one size fits all" approach that Hyundai has taken with the Equus
It's not any different from what the Japanese have done or Hyundai (and the Japanese) have done for the mainstream market - offer things grouped in packages.
And sure, maybe the Equus has fewer paint options for the US market, but things like that will increase as sales increase.
To your point about most of the cost savings being in the dealership network...then that would be a reason why the finishes in the G90 should be like no other..correct?....since they dont cost much
Sure, Hyundai can sink even more $$ into the interior, but still would have to price it below the LS, much less the S Class, since they offer a separate lux dealer experience.
The cost savings Audi has gotten out of their platforms and powertrains is the reason why they have generally been able to offer nicer interiors than their German brethren, but nonetheless, Audi still undercut them in price.
Nowadays, MB has raised it game w/ respect to its interiors (aside from the CLA and its ilk) and has better interiors than Audi (as MB just charges more) - at least material-wise (aesthetically, don't really like the current MB interior designs - too gawdy for my taste).
Except Hyundai has never has the success of the Lexus sales equation. Lexus sold 4x as many LS400's in the first year in the United States as Hyundai has sold since the Equus was released for the 2011 model year
Like I had stated - that was a different time for luxury sales as the Germans were asleep and the LS400 offered
even more value than the Equus for its time.
But look at today - LS sales have dropped to a fraction of what they once were.
and yes...you will get some conquests from people that are looking at mid size luxury that can get a full sized luxury car for the same price
ditto with cars like the 3 series and the G80
I have said that a few times now..price itself will snag some buyers
And that's no different from how Lexus gets the bulk of its sales (made up of the RX and ES) - midsize vehicles at the compact price segment.
The Lexus LS is a very well respected car. It repair history and high resale speak to that
However..its close enough to the germans in cost that I think people are buying what they want
Perhaps that the reason that the Mercedes S class holds 60% of the ultra luxury market in the United States and outsells the Lexus LS
The LS460 is a good bit closer in price to the Equus than it is to the S Class (and take out the separate lux brand/dealership component - it's even closer to the Equus).
Sure...there are people that buy because they can buy " a class up" for the same price
I just think after a certain price point..people just buy what they want[
At the G90's price point its get tougher to reel those people in because they just spend the extra money and buy what they want
Look - I totally agree that it's more difficult for Hyundai to compete at the flagship level than at the midsize segment (even w/ the launch of the Genesis brand), as Audi still pales in comparison in sales of the A8 to the 7 Series much less the S Class.
But there are still value buyers in that segment - many of whom are LS owners.
Even w/ an outdated platform, no AWD and no luxury brand/dealership - Equus sales, and esp. the Equus+K900 sales, have been comparable to that of the XJ (and Jag brand has a lot more prestige and cachet) and within even a rough ballpark of that for the A8.
With the G90 and the next gen K900 (getting AWD and additional powertrains), the 2 should not only outsell the XJ handily, but would not be surprised they start to outsell the A8.
The E class and 5 series outsell the Genesis today...and they cost a lot more
So? (Don't know what you're point is here.)
Those 2 are also more expensive and outsell the CTS, A6, GS, Q80 and XF.
At higher price points people are even more loyal to what they think is a sure thing.
So - why don't more people buy the A6, GS, etc. over the Genesis/G80?
Jaguar was a dying brand with terrible reliability and terrible resale and everyone knew that
They hadnt had any investment and change in the brand in ages
They have had some revitalization in the past few years but they still have a long way to go
Land Rover has the exact same issues and sales are going gangbusters (not the reason why Jag hasn't done better in the US market; they have been doing better in other markets).
Jag hasn't just as much investment as LR and they're models were redone earlier.
Look at Mercedes benz...they have successfully..IMO...raised their line upscale and well as positioned them selves in lower cost segments. One could say that they own the full size ultra luxury market in the United states and also dominate the mid luzury
They also have cars that compete again the Bentley
I'm well aware of all that.
MB recently (aside from the CLA and its ilk) has concentrated on upping the luxury of its models and has seen it pay off.
While MB had long ruled the flagship segment w/ the S Class, BMW had the edge w/ the 3 Series and 5 Series.
The new C Class is actually putting pressure on the 3 Series in the US(and outsells the 3 Series in many other markets) and the new E Class should outsell the next 5 Series as its predecessor had done.
I agree...but they are close enough in price to where $10-15K doesn't make a big difference. As I said a few times when you get to a certain price point I think buyers just buy what they want
Even for the wealthy (not talking the filthy rich here), a
$20k differential is nothing to sneeze at - and for the buyers who want to get what they want (so talking relatively loaded) - the difference is more like $30-35k or if upgrading the powertrain $50k+.
The success of the Mercedes S class is a perfect example. Its costs more than any of its competitors and outsells them all
Yes, it helps to have set the segment.
Despite MB, overall, being the brand w/ more history and cachet, it is the 3 Series which leads its segment in sales and ATP (but MB has been closing in w/ the new C Class).
But despite being more expensive, the A8 has never outsold the LS and the LS and 7 Series have switched places on the podium for 2nd place and the LS being a bargain compared to the Germans has a lot to do w/ it.
The reason why the GS has never seen the comparative sales success of the LS within its segment is that it is not nearly the value of the LS.
For example, one can actually get an A6 for less than the GS (granted, will have to downsize on cylinder count, if not opt for FWD).
I have not seen "numbers" of people come from a car like the 5 series to the genesis.
Well, you don't have to see #s to realize that you're claim that no one does was false.
As I said before..in that price class..you will have some people that go with the Hyundai because of price
Based on the sales numbers I see..most have decided to spend more money and go elsewhere
Like I have always stated, the Genesis has impacted GS and M/Q70 sales the most (along w/ the RLX and the departed TL).
The over whelming majority of Genesis cars I see..at least 80 perhaps even 90% are 6 cylinder cars
Always have been from what I have seen
Well, I can do better than anecdotes.
At the beginning, the Tau V8 take rate on the Genesis was an unheard of
40%.
But w/ the 3.8 getting its power bump and the (at the time) rising gas prices - fell to around 30% and then to around 25% (which was the latest figure I had seen for a couple of years ago).
W/ the drop in gas prices - would guess that the V8 take rate is around 15-20% (have to take into account that the V8 isn't available w/ AWD, so the V6 has the advantage of sales in the snow belt).
The typical V8 take rate in the midsize segment (this is from data 4-5 yrs ago) ranged from 8%-12% for most luxury automakers (so Hyundai is still doing well in that regard).
The exception was Lexus w/ the GS - which below the norm, which is why Lexus canceled V8 sales until they recently brought it back in performance trim in the GS-F.
Anyhow, there are increasing signs that the mainstream luxury market in the US has peaked (the ultra-luxury and supercar markets are another matter) and that, in particular, for sedans, is becoming a more difficult proposition.
Not only are buyers increasingly moving to crossovers and SUVs, but they want space (esp. w/ lower gas prices) and want most, if not all the latest tech and safety gear.
So a 5 Series owner looking for a crossover replacement might look at the X5 - but that is pricier relative to the 5 Series and once you add the tech and safety options, gets really pricey.
So aside from the previous option of moving to a lower priced FWD-based alternative from Lexus, Acura,
Cadillac,
Lincoln or Volvo - more and more buyers are opting to purchase top-trim, loaded versions of mainstream branded crossovers, SUVs and trucks.
The SX and SXL trims of the
Sorento have done well for Kia.
So while the Genesis hasn't impacted the Germans as much as the Japanese - a Genesis alternative to the X5 will likely do better in pulling those owners of German sedans.
