SPYSHOTS: The next generation of the Genesis G80 is here

[SuperKing]

There's more to it than numbers. I've said in many threads that I bought the V8 mainly for the sound it makes but there's also the smoothness of the motor and I barely need to go over 1500rpm with my day to day driving.

 

[EdP]

There's more to it than numbers. I've said in many threads that I bought the V8 mainly for the sound it makes but there's also the smoothness of the motor and I barely need to go over 1500rpm with my day to day driving.

Understood, but you are part of the last people that care. What do you think of the high pitched sound the young kids are putting on their crappy little cars? Terrible, but that is what the next generation, the few that care about cars, likes. Nothing like the glass pack mufflers of years gone by.

Do they have Cruise Nights in your area? Hardly see anyone under 50 that is interested in a chopped top tudor or a 348 Chevy SS or even knows what they are. Times are changing, as are EPA mandates.

Best thing for you to do is buy a few cars with V8 engines and store them for future use as they will eventually disappear from the showrooms.

 

[RCH04]

I believe Lexus no longer offes their smooth V8 in the LS. Then new gen has a TT V6. A sign of the times I guess.

 

[Spanky61]

I'm quite fond of the 5.0 Tau actually. It's a smooth running engine with a surplus of power. It's responsive and as frugal on fuel as can be. Attempting to turbo charge it would ruin the fuel mileage and wonderful characteristics of the engine and auto in general.

 

[YEH]

It is Hyundai's tradition that higher end model will get latest tech the soonest, so G90 will get new powertrain no later than the G80.

While they try to do that, don't always follow it due to the vagrances in timing of when new powertrain components and tech are ready and w/ the schedule for the next gen models or facelifts.

I
The 3.5T V6 will have similar hp as the V8, but significantly more torque, make no sense to keep the V8.

Not sure whether the 10AT project still exists or not in the corporate. They usually file US patent for new transmission design well before it goes into market (same for other companies - Aisin, ZF, GM/Ford etc.), and this was the case for the current 8AT. But right now, I have not seen any patent filing from Hyundai related to 10AT.

Doubt Genesis will keep the NA V8 for the G80 when the 3.5T replaces the 3.3T (there's also talk of Genesis adding a 3.0T, but that may be for different markets - or could, in a way, be the replacement for the 3.3T (if one looks at the 3.5T as the replacement for the Tau).

As for the 10 spd, yeah - haven't heard much about it as of late, but also haven't heard anything about it being canceled.

Considering that the 1st implementation of such a new AT would be on the new G80 (or maybe the facelifted G90), still time for Hyundai to file the patent design.

If they want to be a luxury brand they need the V8. If they wanted it to be a value car, they should've kept selling them as Hyundais. Just about all the luxury car brands have a mid size with an optional V8. Sure, Jaguar doesn't sell many V8 XJ's compared to the V6 but the option is there if you want it. Same with the 5 series, E-Class, Q70, etc... If they want Genesis to be successful, they need to copy what the successful brands are doing right...

W/ the 3.5T, can see the Tau V8 being discontinued for the G80; tho, purportedly will continue to be offered in the refreshed G90.

W/ the G90 (including its LWB variant), doubt Genesis would totally abandon the V8, but likely won't see it continue as is (w/ the NA Tau).

If the G80 ever is to see the V8 again, it esp. would be as smaller displacement FI V8 (tied to a 48V mild hybrid system) - but likely would be reserved for a performance variant of the G80.

But if decision-makers/engineers believe that electrification is the (near) future, then can see them abandon the V8 altogether for a FI V6 boosted by a more powerful battery system.

Note how Koenigsegg went back to the drawing board for its next hypercar b/c what Tesla has been able to do when it comes to performance.

 

[YEH]

Of course Hyundai is not willing to spend that R&D money, due to the G90 is the only application, and its sales volume is close to be negligible.

In fact, the 2018 LS500, which only comes with turbocharged V6, already outsold (or very close to) the Mercedes S class/BMW 7 series/Audi A8 in the past couple months. This proves nowdays, the strategy of high output V6T and not offering V8 has no problem at all for marketing a full size flagship sedan, from the financial aspect.

If you look at the LS500 sales, you will know having a V8 or not doesn't matter.

Sales of the LS 500 have been disappointing thus far.

Toyota, tho, is preparing a new LS-F powered by a new 4.0L bi-turbo V8.

That's why it's imperative that Hyundai invest in a new smaller displacement FI V8.

Aside from the G90 (including the LWB), can use such an engine in a performance variant of both the G80 and GV80, as well as using it for the K900 (the KDM K9 still offers the Tau).

Speaking of Kia, they're also looking to do lux CUVs down the road.

In addition, there has been indication of H/K starting development work on a BoF pick-ups and SUVs.

The engine can be used in that application, including if Genesis ever does a lux version of the BoF SUV.

Exactly, if they ever want a performance division to compete with AMG/M/F then they're going to need to keep a V8 around that they can spruce up at a later date. Sure smaller engines are great for fuel economy, AMG makes a 2.0T that has similar HP and TQ numbers to our V6T but would you want that in the G80? I sure wouldn't want a luxury car that screams to 4000rpm with normal driving even if it performs the same.

Only way I can see them forgoing a new V8 is if they think electrification is closer to being mainstream.

 

[YEH]

I hope they shave a few hundred lbs off the car, an aluminum frame is a good start. And have a more refined sport model by 2021, the latest 2022. The good news is it’s sporting. Michelin’s (for the G80 Sport fans)

Doubt we'll see an all-aluminum frame.

But one made out of ultra-tensile steel w/ some aluminum components is very likely, along w/ aluminum used for the hood (and maybe the trunk and certain other strategic areas).

The reason why Cadillac went w/ a composite frame (w/ aluminum used in certain areas) is that the weight loss w/ an aluminum frame is mitigated by having to use more sound deadening materials (which adds back weight).

And then there is the cost of aluminum (which had soared recently).

For these reasons, Audi recently indicated that they may abandon going w/ an all-aluminum chassis for their future vehicles.

 

[MyCorvette]

Sales of the LS 500 have been disappointing thus far.

Toyota, tho, is preparing a new LS-F powered by a new 4.0L bi-turbo V8.

That's why it's imperative that Hyundai invest in a new smaller displacement FI V8.

Only way I can see them forgoing a new V8 is if they think electrification is closer to being mainstream.

Starting March this year, Lexus sold these number of LS500 each month:

1,008
999
908
789
712
923

Compared to Mercedes S class:

1,627
1,535
1,169
1,156
630
595

I do not see anything that is disappointing, especially for the past 2 months, one single LS500 model already outsold the full S class lineup (S450, S560, AMG S63), by a large margin. How can this disappointing you?

In the next few years, Hyundai/Kia will not make BOF SUVs and trucks. Even there is a need for V8 engine for any upcoming SUV models (which is not going to happen), the current Tau V8 is more than enough to fulfill the task. In fact, the new 3.5T V6 is what they will get at most.

The high output tune version of the upcoming 3.5L turbo V6 will take the current V8 position in the future. Any need for a higher output V8T is in the sedan product line. Hyundai has semi-explicitly indicated the next G80 will ultimately dispose the V8. So only the US market G90 will be the major consumer party for the V8 engine.

~40% of G90 sold in US is the V8 version currently, and Genesis sold ~130 G90 every month. So around 50 buyers for V8 engine every month, which translates to ~600 people annually. Developing a new V8T will costs at least 500 million (US dollar) as initial investment, and this is sunk cost. Every single person with sound mind will immediately know he is not going to shell out 0.5 billion downpayment + per unit costs + annual operating costs, just for delighting 600 people every year.

Don't get me wrong, I like a V8T and I want it. But from the corporation aspect, I do not think they will do it. Even Lexus is hesitate right now.

 

[EdP]

Developing a new V8T will costs at least 500 million (US dollar) as initial investment, and this is sunk cost. Every single person with sound mind will immediately know he is not going to shell out 0.5 billion downpayment + per unit costs + annual operating costs, just for delighting 600 people every year.

If you amortize the development cost over 10 years it is not so bad. Just up the sticker price by $83,000+ to cover it. If you really want the V8, a few bucks more is not a big deal.

 

[SuperKing]

Or... include the sales from the rest of the planet. The US isn't even the biggest market for Genesis.

The way I see it, I'm getting average MPG similar to my old YF Turbo.... why get rid of it and replace with something more complicated and less reliable that has similar MPG?

______________________________

Help support this site so it can continue supporting you!

 

[YEH]

Starting March this year, Lexus sold these number of LS500 each month:

1,008
999
908
789
712
923

Compared to Mercedes S class:

1,627
1,535
1,169
1,156
630
595

I do not see anything that is disappointing, especially for the past 2 months, one single LS500 model already outsold the full S class lineup (S450, S560, AMG S63), by a large margin. How can this disappointing you?

A lot of models for Benz are down as they have a supply issue.

The LS 500 has hit its rather modest sales target of 1k/month only once, so doesn't look lit it'll hit 12k sales for the year.

Meanwhile, the current S Class, did over 24.5k sales in its first full year of sale, despite commanding a pretty hefty price premium over the LS.

The LS has always outsold the S Class (relative to the 1st year of sale) until the LS 500.

The LS 400, 430 and 460 all sold over 30k in their respective 1st year of sale (the 400 did over 40k).

Even w/ the decline in sedan sales, shouldn't be such a drastic drop off in LS sales (didn't see that when the current S Class launched).

In addition, unlike the S Class, the US is pretty much the only big selling market for the LS.

It doesn't sell well in Japan (in fact, no Lexus model really sells well - only the NX really sells over 500/month and not always).

So, w/o greater sales here (or elswhere), it's going to take a long time to get ROI (this is a major reason why Toyota drew out the life of the 460 for so long).

In the next few years, Hyundai/Kia will not make BOF SUVs and trucks. Even there is a need for V8 engine for any upcoming SUV models (which is not going to happen), the current Tau V8 is more than enough to fulfill the task. In fact, the new 3.5T V6 is what they will get at most.

How do you know it's not going to happen?

Kia Australia has passed on the Santa Cruz b/c they want a proper Hilux competitor.

There have been numerous reports of H/K seriously mulling doing a proper BoF pickup and SUV.

Do you know something they (among others) don't know?

Hyundai plotting Toyota LandCruiser rival

Hyundai wants a full-size go-anywhere SUV for Australia, but will customers buy it?

It’s no secret that Hyundai is plotting a big new eight-seat SUV to take on the likes of the Mazda CX-9, as evidenced by the Palisade that’s already been spied in testing and is under consideration for Australia.
But there’s another even bigger and more rugged SUV on the Korean car-maker’s product plan… and like the one-tonne ute to rival the all-conquering Toyota HiLux by 2021, Hyundai Australia is eager to get it.

Given its even stronger sales potential in Australia than a soft-roader (Toyota sells more Prados than Klugers), the hard-core 4x4 wagon is being labelled within Hyundai as a rival to the dominant Toyota LandCruiser 200 Series – and it’s likely to be even bigger than the popular five-metre-long Toyota off-roader.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/hyundai-plotting-toyota-landcruiser-rival-114248/

The high output tune version of the upcoming 3.5L turbo V6 will take the current V8 position in the future. Any need for a higher output V8T is in the sedan product line. Hyundai has semi-explicitly indicated the next G80 will ultimately dispose the V8. So only the US market G90 will be the major consumer party for the V8 engine.

~40% of G90 sold in US is the V8 version currently, and Genesis sold ~130 G90 every month. So around 50 buyers for V8 engine every month, which translates to ~600 people annually. Developing a new V8T will costs at least 500 million (US dollar) as initial investment, and this is sunk cost. Every single person with sound mind will immediately know he is not going to shell out 0.5 billion downpayment + per unit costs + annual operating costs, just for delighting 600 people every year.

Don't get me wrong, I like a V8T and I want it. But from the corporation aspect, I do not think they will do it. Even Lexus is hesitate right now.

And what's the business case for the low-volume Essentia?

Like I had stated, Toyota is developing a new bi-turbo 4.0T for Lexus (and Cadillac has their own new FI V8).

If Hyundai wants Genesis to play w/ the big boys (or even just the Tier 1.5 ike Lexus and Cadillac - they're gonna need a new V8, including if they want to do a performance variant of the next G80 (or even the GV80 - what's the point of going RWD w/ its CUVs if performance variants are not part of the plan?).

 

[MyCorvette]

The LS500 has very little technology advantages compared to the LCI S class, so the current sales number correctly represent this, the market is fair. So I am somewhat amazed that LS500 can beat S class sales by so large a margin in the past 2 months. The point is, having a V8 or not does not affect LS500's sales, or else it is hard to explain why the S class (mostly V8) sales is keep dropping, even with the latest mid-cycle update S560.

Most cars mentioned in your post are simply speculations at this moment, it is hard to discuss whether they make sense or not, because they have not come into real.

A lot of models for Benz are down as they have a supply issue.

The LS 500 has hit its rather modest sales target of 1k/month only once, so doesn't look lit it'll hit 12k sales for the year.

Meanwhile, the current S Class, did over 24.5k sales in its first full year of sale, despite commanding a pretty hefty price premium over the LS.

The LS has always outsold the S Class (relative to the 1st year of sale) until the LS 500.

The LS 400, 430 and 460 all sold over 30k in their respective 1st year of sale (the 400 did over 40k).

Even w/ the decline in sedan sales, shouldn't be such a drastic drop off in LS sales (didn't see that when the current S Class launched).

In addition, unlike the S Class, the US is pretty much the only big selling market for the LS.

It doesn't sell well in Japan (in fact, no Lexus model really sells well - only the NX really sells over 500/month and not always).

So, w/o greater sales here (or elswhere), it's going to take a long time to get ROI (this is a major reason why Toyota drew out the life of the 460 for so long).





How do you know it's not going to happen?

Kia Australia has passed on the Santa Cruz b/c they want a proper Hilux competitor.

There have been numerous reports of H/K seriously mulling doing a proper BoF pickup and SUV.

Do you know something they (among others) don't know?



https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/hyundai-plotting-toyota-landcruiser-rival-114248/





And what's the business case for the low-volume Essentia?

Like I had stated, Toyota is developing a new bi-turbo 4.0T for Lexus (and Cadillac has their own new FI V8).

If Hyundai wants Genesis to play w/ the big boys (or even just the Tier 1.5 ike Lexus and Cadillac - they're gonna need a new V8, including if they want to do a performance variant of the next G80 (or even the GV80 - what's the point of going RWD w/ its CUVs if performance variants are not part of the plan?).

 

[MyCorvette]

Another evidence V6 engine does not affect sales at all - the Mercedes GL/GLS450, before 2015 model year it was V8T, after that it changed to V6T, look at the annual sales number, this change does not affect it at all - instead in the past 2 years Mercedes sold more than before.

The LS500 has very little technology advantages compared to the LCI S class, so the current sales number correctly represent this, the market is fair. So I am somewhat amazed that LS500 can beat S class sales by so large a margin in the past 2 months. The point is, having a V8 or not does not affect LS500's sales, or else it is hard to explain why the S class (mostly V8) sales is keep dropping, even with the latest mid-cycle update S560.

Most cars mentioned in your post are simply speculations at this moment, it is hard to discuss whether they make sense or not, because they have not come into real.

 

[SuperKing]

You can still get the GLS with same V8TT. Probably introduced the cheaper V6 variant to increase sales.

 

[MyCorvette]

You can still get the GLS with same V8TT. Probably introduced the cheaper V6 variant to increase sales.

Back in 2014 when they phased out the V8 GLS450, I optioned the V6 GLS450 and found that if identically equipped, 2015 GL450 (which is V6) is slightly more expensive than the 2014 GL450 (V8) instead.

 

[SuperKing]

The point I was trying to make is that you can still get a V8 if you wanted one in the GLS.

 

[MyCorvette]

The point I was trying to make is that you can still get a V8 if you wanted one in the GLS.

Yes understand. What I mean is, if consumers generally prefer V8 over V6 for large size sedan/SUV, when GL450 changed to V6, the pattern we observed should be: there is significantly less people buying GL450, and most sales are on the GL/GLS550. However this does not happen, so it indicates as long as the hp/torque numbers are comparable on paper, most buyers does not care whether it is V6 or V8, or some of them do care a little bit but it is not a deal breaker and this will not decrease the product's appeal to consumers.

 

[YEH]

The LS500 has very little technology advantages compared to the LCI S class, so the current sales number correctly represent this, the market is fair.

That's always been the case of the LS compared to the S Class and until the LS 500, the LS (in its 1st year of sale) has always outsold the applicable S Class (in its 1st year of sale).

This time. the LS won't even do half of what the W222 did in its 1st year of sale.

So I am somewhat amazed that LS500 can beat S class sales by so large a margin in the past 2 months. The point is, having a V8 or not does not affect LS500's sales, or else it is hard to explain why the S class (mostly V8) sales is keep dropping, even with the latest mid-cycle update S560.

Again, MB has been having supply issues w/ a # of models.

Not having a FI V8 that can compete against the Germans has definitely affected LS and Lexus sales; it's the reason why the GS-F has languished in sales whereas sales of AMG and M have hit records.

In some places, MB is building AMG-only dealerships.

I see soccer-moms driving Alpina B7s (they don't come anywhere close to driving them at their limits).

Why? B/c they can.

Most cars mentioned in your post are simply speculations at this moment, it is hard to discuss whether they make sense or not, because they have not come into real.

Well, at one time, the G70 and Stinger were speculations, as were the upcoming Palisade, Telluride, Santa Cruz, etc.

Can't really compare a T6 w/ the V8s the Germans are bringing to the table (T8), as a boosted 6 cyl is no replacement for a T8 (which is a whole 'nother step up in performance), and the Germans still offer 12 cylinders under the hood (now, those may not have much time left).

This is exactly why Toyota has a bi-turbo V8 in development.

The GS-F hasn't sold b/c it gets destroyed by not only the Germans, but the CTS-V (and Cadillac now has a new TTV8); which is why the GS-F often gets compared to something like the CTS V-Sport, one rung down.

Those w/ the means are willing to pay for increased power/performance and that's a market segment where the margins are the fattest.

Why do you think FCA keeps coming out w/ another version of the Challenger and Charger that outdoes the previous version which was the record holder for HP?

 

[SuperKing]

Yes understand. What I mean is, if consumers generally prefer V8 over V6 for large size sedan/SUV, when GL450 changed to V6, the pattern we observed should be: there is significantly less people buying GL450, and most sales are on the GL/GLS550. However this does not happen, so it indicates as long as the hp/torque numbers are comparable on paper, most buyers does not care whether it is V6 or V8, or some of them do care a little bit but it is not a deal breaker and this will not decrease the product's appeal to consumers.

There must be enough people who do care for Merc to keep offering the V8 otherwise they would've scrapped it in the entire lineup. There should be enough buyers worldwide for Genesis to keep offering the G80 V8 on the high end of the model range.

 

[MyCorvette]

There must be enough people who do care for Merc to keep offering the V8 otherwise they would've scrapped it in the entire lineup. There should be enough buyers worldwide for Genesis to keep offering the G80 V8 on the high end of the model range.

For the V8 G90, not sure how many are sold in KDM; besides that, I think they are almost sold within US.