Supercharger or twin turbo

[Rnaslund]

Any updates on the supercharger for the 4.6L?

 

[xiaphin]

Got to a certain point in the design and unfortunately haven't made any progress since middle of last year. I'd say it is 75% designed but no physical parts have been made or tested. Supercharger is at one users house and the car at another, if it was all in one place more progress may have been made. A 3-D printed prototype was not made due to the cost. The path the ports on the adapter would have to take are complex and there is no way to reduce their angle with the current thickness at 1.50". Could increase it but the hood most likely wouldn't be able to close. Feel bad not being able to dedicate any time to this because it looks like it could possibly work.

Since the ports and bolt patterns for the supercharger and engine block only vary slightly it makes it difficult to bolt together. If they were farther apart they wouldn't potentially occupy the same space in the adapter. Hardest part about this is being able to attach the adapter to the engine block and the lack of space. Shorter studs are required in the block and it would attach with a nut on top. The supercharger would bolt down from the top like normal.

Some screen grabs attached for reference. I was working with Tailwalker and 84FordMan on this and would be willing to hand over what I have done to anybody with SolidWorks and Engineering experience who wants to continue this venture. I'm sure they still would like to install this.

Adapter Assembly




Bottom/Engine Side of Adapter


Top/Supercharger Side of Adapter

 

[84FordMan]

Since last time we met, I have also acquired a supercharger. If you wouldn't mind emailing me (emcintosh83@gmail.com) what you have, I'll see what I can do further on my end. Thanks.

 

[xiaphin]

Didn't realize you had bought one as well. I'll send the files over to you. I have them in 2008 and 2016 SolidWorks formats.

 

[Tailwalker]

Just to update - we (Ed) have fiddled with Matt's awesome designs to solidify a possible working adapter. It is currently being milled by a friend who happens to own a 5-axis. We should see a test fit by July 4.

 

[xiaphin]

Awesome. Text me some pics once you get it. Glad you guys are able to continue on with the process.

 

[Dreamsy]

What about tuning though? No canned tunes yet, and even if there was, wouldn't any forced induction be best for a tuner to tune it in person?

 

[Claylambo]

Ya talking with a local company here in AZ, and they told me same thing that if I am willing to spend the funds they can make it happen. Local shop would do the custom plumbing for the twin turbos, intercooler etc...then a shop on other side of town said they'd jump all over taking a stand alone ECU and program from scratch. But being a one off between the turbos and tuning around $15k in total. So definitely need to find a less expensive option, especially since this would void everything just about. By the way I have a Gen 2 5.0

 

[Aquineas]

15K is not an insignificant chunk of change, but at the same time it doesn't seem unreasonable for the amount of work that would go into it. Now that being said, can you imagine the look on people's faces when you opened that thing up? I mean if I'm honest, the 5.0 Genesis already surprises people as it stands. Another 100hp (or more) would make jaws drop.

 

[Dreamsy]

Yeah have a point Aquineas, its definitely a sleeper, but for 15k nah, down payment on a 2009-10 GTR be wayyy more reasonable if were to use that money towards a car. Only way I'm getting my car tuned is flying one of the techs out from LAP3 in Korea. Can't be bothered to wait 10 years for US tuning shops to be able to tune our cars.

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[Tailwalker]

Matt - we will definitely keep you in the loop. Ed is talking about shipping the car to Chicago to tune, while I would rather just schedule a local tune event. Maybe here in ILM, to get everyone to the beach. lol

As to costs, we have not put together our business plan. I can say that it will be less than half of the 15k, including canned tune. This would include supercharger, adapter plates, intercooler and heat exchanger, water piping and pump, intake piping and filter, fuel rails and injectors, pulley and tensioner, ECU and tune, all brackets and hardware.

The big question is HP gains. In doing the math, we are expecting a 140+ HP gain with this application (475-500whp should be attainable). Even if we come in less than expected, 425-450whp is still a monster addition to what the 4.6 produces stock. We are essentially taking a 4.6L to 6.6L, with the roots style blower. We are avoiding true compressor supercharger/turbo applications as we feel this to be a 'safer' option. We are hoping this will be less detrimental to internals. Talking 5-7lbs for these numbers. The goal is for a stable application, great as a daily driver, yet able to have fun when it comes down to the idiot in the mustang that pulls up next to you. Sleeper style, except for that lovely whine.

Currently, the 4.6 is the only option. However, we hope to have good news within the next few months regarding a 5.0 option. There would be a test car needed
I have yet to speak with Ed, but I imagine we would open up this forum to an initial group buy - one because it's about the community, and the limited availability of performance upgrades, but also obviously assisting us in getting the project started. We will cross that bridge when we get there.

More to come.

 

[Dreamsy]

Matt - we will definitely keep you in the loop. Ed is talking about shipping the car to Chicago to tune, while I would rather just schedule a local tune event. Maybe here in ILM, to get everyone to the beach. lol

As to costs, we have not put together our business plan. I can say that it will be less than half of the 15k, including canned tune. This would include supercharger, adapter plates, intercooler and heat exchanger, water piping and pump, intake piping and filter, fuel rails and injectors, pulley and tensioner, ECU and tune, all brackets and hardware.

The big question is HP gains. In doing the math, we are expecting a 140+ HP gain with this application (475-500whp should be attainable). Even if we come in less than expected, 425-450whp is still a monster addition to what the 4.6 produces stock. We are essentially taking a 4.6L to 6.6L, with the roots style blower. We are avoiding true compressor supercharger/turbo applications as we feel this to be a 'safer' option. We are hoping this will be less detrimental to internals. Talking 5-7lbs for these numbers. The goal is for a stable application, great as a daily driver, yet able to have fun when it comes down to the idiot in the mustang that pulls up next to you. Sleeper style, except for that lovely whine.

Currently, the 4.6 is the only option. However, we hope to have good news within the next few months regarding a 5.0 option. There would be a test car needed
I have yet to speak with Ed, but I imagine we would open up this forum to an initial group buy - one because it's about the community, and the limited availability of performance upgrades, but also obviously assisting us in getting the project started. We will cross that bridge when we get there.

More to come.

I noticed you mentioned fuel rails and fuel injectors. You were planning on making custom larger fuel injectors? Because I was thinking of buying some Volkswagen ones, that are pretty much exactly the same. Then again, there's that risk it won't fit entirely, and will leak. Which is scary stuff, and sounds like a headache to deal with.

 

[Genegoesfast]

I'm very excited to see the outcome of this. I'm curious at what point does the trans become an issue with making that much horsepower?

 

[Tailwalker]

We will be acquiring larger replacement injectors, between 42 and 55lb. They will fit with no issue, as the research has been completed on this end. 55 is overkill, but does leave a lot of headroom for those that really want to play.

I believe the tranny can handle 600hp, though I cannot recall if that number is crank or wheel. I know that Ed has vetted this, and we are within tolerance. He can chime in with specifics once he returns. He's out of town on his first vacation in a very long while. I'm the idiot, he's the brains. Works out well.

 

[Claylambo]

I am very interested Tailwalker if anything comes of the 5.0

 

[Dreamsy]

We will be acquiring larger replacement injectors, between 42 and 55lb. They will fit with no issue, as the research has been completed on this end. 55 is overkill, but does leave a lot of headroom for those that really want to play.

I believe the tranny can handle 600hp, though I cannot recall if that number is crank or wheel. I know that Ed has vetted this, and we are within tolerance. He can chime in with specifics once he returns. He's out of town on his first vacation in a very long while. I'm the idiot, he's the brains. Works out well.

Hey man. I appreciate what you're doing, I really do. I'm sad because I see fuel injectors for your car the (4.6L), but I can't find them for the 5.0L. I don't think that's fair ahhhh. If I'm not mistaken yours is MPI, mine is GDI.

 

[Ambush]

Tailwaker, where you been hiding??? heheeheh I have not made it to import night yet.
Let me know when you wanna roll. I think I will be something neat since putting my wheels on.

 

[84FordMan]

Correct, we chose to go with 50lbs injectors as they were the best suited to meet our fueling needs for our target boost pressure, as well leaving enough headroom for either raising the pressure slightly or keeping the pressure the same and running E85. Either way the injectors that we have selected are a common injector style, so if you are feeling froggy, sleeve the block, forged rods, pistons and crank the boost to the maximum the M122 is capable of producing, there are sizes available up to 200lbs (2100cc/min if you like metric).

For a point of reference, we had the factory injectors flow benched and IIRC, they were 280cc/min (26.7 lbs/hr if you like imperial), so they are barely large enough to support the engine in NA form without running north of a 90% duty cycle, let alone FI.

All North American 5.0L Taus are GDI, IIRC Saudi Arabia was one of the only countries to ever receive the MPI 5.0L. So our kit for the 5.0L Tau will omit the injectors, rail, and fuel feed line adapter as they are built into your cylinder heads. It is our hope they are just like the ones Hyundai uses in the 3.8L Lambda V6, as those have proven themselves to be able to supply fuel without issue even when TurboKits.com's single turbo kit is bolted up.

Our other hurdle with the 5.0L, aside from tuning, is the injector bosses are cast into the runners of our supercharger, so we are faced with having two separate adapter designs (4.6L with the injector taper cut out in the port and 5.0L with the injector taper eliminated, which would leave the injector bosses open and customers wondering why they have a bolt hole with no hole) or machine a bracket with tapered ends that fit down and seal into the injector bosses tied to the mounting hardware for the SC or, least desirable, fill in each injector boss with a metal epoxy.

 

[shovelrider78]

Why is upgrading to a Turbo/Supercharger such a big deal? I recall over 5 years ago there was a Twin Turbo 4.6 Genesis at Sema in Vegas. I've been looking (unsuccessfully) for a Turbo/Supercharger upgrade kit for my 2012 5.0 Genesis. Putting that on the back burner, I'm now looking for a Paddle-Shifter kit and have limited success. Any Genesis owners out there with a recommendation? There are a shit load of 4.6's & 5.0's out there. These are not rare engines! I'd love to have a 500-600hp+ daily driver Genesis. Years ago I had a '87 Buick Grand National & had so much fun blasting chips & running low 11's at the drag strip. I believe whoever starts producing & selling Genesis performance upgrades will make good $$$.

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Cars with the 4.6 liter Genesis V8 are kind of few and far between. I can understand why it would be challenging to make a strong case for getting something together to mass produce. There are more 5.0s available but now with the 3.3 liter twin turbo V6, that's going to be the engine you see lots of aftermarket support for.