Supercharger or twin turbo

[edizzle89]

Note: No one will add force injection to a stock engine with compression as high as in our engines in stock form. But what do i know.

C7 corvette's have the same compression ratio and people are having no problem boosting the stock 6.2 LT1 engine in them. Direct injection is a game changer when it comes to boost and high compression ratios. It's not the engine that's keeping boost options for us limited, it's just the lack of support and tuning that's keeping it from happening.


Chevy LT1 Engine Specs
LT1 Performance Specifications

Engine Ratings

Compression Ratio11:5 Horsepower Rating455 hp @ 6,000 rpm Torque Rating460 ft./lbs. @ 4,600 rpm

 

[carguy75]

C7 corvette's have the same compression ratio and people are having no problem boosting the stock 6.2 LT1 engine in them. Direct injection is a game changer when it comes to boost and high compression ratios. It's not the engine that's keeping boost options for us limited, it's just the lack of support and tuning that's keeping it from happening.


Chevy LT1 Engine Specs
LT1 Performance Specifications

Engine Ratings

Compression Ratio11:5 Horsepower Rating455 hp @ 6,000 rpm Torque Rating460 ft./lbs. @ 4,600 rpm

LOL. I am sure that they also change the internals like the pistons,valves and intake manifold. Most bolt-on kits usually shorter the engine life on stock internals. Even GM LS/LTI engines. I never said it was impossible to add force induction on the 4.6/5.0. I believe that it will not happen as a over-the-counter premade kit for a stock 4.6/5.0. Simple Push-rod Chevy engines(even the 6.2 LTI) and very advanced DOHC Hyundai engines are totally different designs. What work on one will not work on another.

Just cruise some GM forums and see what they say about adding a turbo kit to a stock internal engine in terms of engine reliability.

This LTI tuner added disclaimer about adding force-induction on a stock engine under reliability.
C7 TURBO KIT

Note: I was wrong about no one adding a turbo to an engine with 11.5 compression in stock form. Apparently the 6.2 LTI can handle the extra boost fairly well. How that translates to our 4.6/5.0 engines is anyone guess.

 

[edizzle89]

LOL. I am sure that they also change the internals like the pistons,valves and intake manifold.

Just cruise some GM forums and see what they say about adding a turbo kit to a stock internal engine in terms of engine reliability.

This LTI tuner added disclaimer about adding force-induction on a stock engine under reliability.
C7 TURBO KIT

From UPP's website:
** UPP C7 TWIN TURBO KIT
On a stock C7 (A8) this system made 609whp on pump gas with only 6psi and a fully stock exhaust. Upgrading the exhaust allowed for the full 7psi of boost and a staggering 678whp and 696ft/tq! All of this with full boost achieved by 2800 RPM **
They usually dyno around 400 whp bone stock, so with just 6 psi and nothing else it picks up around 200 whp. Even the weakest engine's can handle 6 psi with good tuning. Tuning is what can make or break a boosted engine, sometimes adding turbo's to n/a engines get a bad wrap because people just see it blow up and think it's because of being boosted, when really it was a bad tune. No amount of forged internals and keep an engine from destroying itself with a bad tune.

Of course adding boost isn't going to make your engine last any longer, i dont think anybody who boosts an n/a engine ever expects to extend the engine's life or increasing reliability by doing so, that's not the reason they do it, they want to make power, and power comes at the expense of engine wear. Just like putting a tune a a 3.3TT will probably shorten it's life over a stock 3.3TT.

And as for the GM guys having reliability issues, THIS THREAD HERE has a list of people with stock bottom ends showing how many mile's they've gone since they boosted their engines and also who has broken their engine (which is a risk when boosting anything), there are a handful that north of 50k miles with boost, and of 38 there are only 7 that have broken.

Again people dont put on performance parts in hopes to make their engine last any longer, and our Tau engine's are no exception. If you want boost there is always going to be a risk.

 

[carguy75]

So I get it. You believe that the Hyundai Tau 4.6 or 5.0 DOHC V8 can be easily be turbocharged with stock internals, because the Chevy Corvette's 6.2 push-rod engine can be easily upgraded to force induction with stock internals. I will not argue against that logic. If it works for a Chevy it must work for a Hyundai.

Well, I will just wait to see who will provide a bolt-on force induction kit for the Hyundai 4.6 or 5.0 V8 TAU engine. Something tell me it will be very very very long wait.

 

[Flarfignewton]

The GT350s and 2018+ Coyotes have 12:1 compression and being boosted pretty easily. Not saying that it makes the Tau just as capable but the engine failures I have read about on our engines don't appear to be bottom end related for the most part. I think as long as the tune is conservative and you don't throw a huge amount of CFM (boost isn't the full story) at it, it could potentially still be reliable. But until one has been boosted it's anyone's guess. I believe the reason why Hyundai/Kia is using a smaller V6 for forced induction is due to gas mileage and the coming EPA standards as boosted V8 are not known for high fuel economy/low emissions. Even Ford went to a TT V6 for the Ford GT although the smaller size does allow for a more aerodynamic shape as well.

 

[Suburbazine]

I don't see

The GT350s and 2018+ Coyotes have 12:1 compression and being boosted pretty easily. Not saying that it makes the Tau just as capable but the engine failures I have read about on our engines don't appear to be bottom end related for the most part. I think as long as the tune is conservative and you don't throw a huge amount of CFM (boost isn't the full story) at it, it could potentially still be reliable. But until one has been boosted it's anyone's guess. I believe the reason why Hyundai/Kia is using a smaller V6 for forced induction is due to gas mileage and the coming EPA standards as boosted V8 are not known for high fuel economy/low emissions. Even Ford went to a TT V6 for the Ford GT although the smaller size does allow for a more aerodynamic shape as well.

If Lexus' 2UR-GSE 5.0 is only able to take 100hp extra through boost, how much do you think a Tau will take? I can't imagine the bottom end is built any stronger, at least in regards to the conrods which are what bend on the Lexus.

 

[carguy75]

The GT350s and 2018+ Coyotes have 12:1 compression and being boosted pretty easily. Not saying that it makes the Tau just as capable but the engine failures I have read about on our engines don't appear to be bottom end related for the most part. I think as long as the tune is conservative and you don't throw a huge amount of CFM (boost isn't the full story) at it, it could potentially still be reliable. But until one has been boosted it's anyone's guess. I believe the reason why Hyundai/Kia is using a smaller V6 for forced induction is due to gas mileage and the coming EPA standards as boosted V8 are not known for high fuel economy/low emissions. Even Ford went to a TT V6 for the Ford GT although the smaller size does allow for a more aerodynamic shape as well.

Hey, I like the 5.0 Tau engine. However, I am a realist. Hyundai do not strike me as a company that will over-engineer their engines to handle more power than available. Well, not by the margins that force-induction will produce. The Ford performance engines are made robust by design to handle high horsepower due to competition. The examples people are using are for engines designed for pure sport cars(Mustang,Corvette). However, i really do not know how strong the Tau internals are engineered to be and if force induction will be a major factor. My best guess is that the Tau engine will not operate long after it is force inducted in stock form.

You can slap a turbo on any engine, but the trick is making that engine last. For a race car no problem, but a daily driver? I doubt many Genesis owners really are willing to perform an engine tear-down soon after installing a turbo in their nice luxury car. Especially, since the car is very very fast in stock form. You have to wear a race helmet just to run it down a local drag track even in stock form.

You are correct that many automakers are leaning towards force-inducted V6 engines due to weight reduction, packaging, and better fuel economy. So that may be a reason why Hyundai decided not to add turbo to the TAU, no room. The engine bay is pretty tight in the Genesis with the 5.0.

 

[carguy75]

I don't see


If Lexus' 2UR-GSE 5.0 is only able to take 100hp extra through boost, how much do you think a Tau will take? I can't imagine the bottom end is built any stronger, at least in regards to the conrods which are what bend on the Lexus.

I like the Tau, but I believe that Toyota make better engines than Hyundai. So, no the Tau would not be stronger I believe than the 2UR-GSE.

 

[Flarfignewton]

If I had more disposable income I would love to figure out a forced induction solution for my 4.6. I also don't believe you could throw a lot more power into it without some sort of failure. But no one will know for sure until someone tries it. Worst case scenario, a used engine isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. The labor would be the costly part unless you're able to swap yourself.

 

[carguy75]

If I had more disposable income I would love to figure out a forced induction solution for my 4.6. I also don't believe you could throw a lot more power into it without some sort of failure. But no one will know for sure until someone tries it. Worst case scenario, a used engine isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. The labor would be the costly part unless you're able to swap yourself.

LOL. If the Genesis was a Honda Civic or VW Golf we would already know the breaking point of this engine. Plus, the tuner market would be full of "upgraded" parts to solve the issue. Unfortunately, the main demographic for our cars do not have the desire nor time to invest in making their luxury ride into a drag car. Even if force induction can be added then the brakes and suspension would need to be overhauled to safely drive the car with the extra power. $$$$ which may cost more than the car itself since our cars depreciate at an alarming rate.

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[daviderle]

I used to think, if Hyundai put a 5.0 in the Coupe we may had a better chance!?

But then again there have been few 3.8 turbo kits out there for the coupe, that ‘could’ be easily made to fit in the 3.8 sedan, but I have yet to see a single brave sole try that, at least in the last 10 years or so! Why?

My two cents on the matter;
Beside few of us that like to tinker a bit, while keeping the awesome 10/100 warranty in the back of heads, there really has not been enough interest or willingness to take (?serious?) risks, as I am guessing that reliability and cost of ownership played a key factor for the large majority of people who have been part of our community.

 

[Flarfignewton]

Being young and buying mine with no warranty, I have no problem messing around with it. Just don't have the means to do so.

 

[carguy75]

Being young and buying mine with no warranty, I have no problem messing around with it. Just don't have the means to do so.

I feel your pain. I am older, but still do not have the means to buy a turbo kit even if one became available. Well, maybe I could afford the kit but no the cost of a possible engine/trans rebuild after I install the turbo and have some real fun with it .

 

[Flarfignewton]

Right, push more power through the engine and even if it holds other parts start breaking. Axles, driveshafts etc. However I believe the differential at least would hold.

 

[carguy75]

Right, push more power through the engine and even if it holds other parts start breaking. Axles, driveshafts etc. However I believe the differential at least would hold.

So true. Upgrading a car engine's power potential properly requires a major overhaul of other drive-line/chassis parts most of the time to do it properly.

Back in my younger days I would have bought a cheap used car and then fantasize about turbo charging it. If it breaks then I would just cut my losses and buy another. Now, most of my cars are $20k plus and are actually owned by a bank until I pay them off or trade them for other cars so I now have to be more realistic about what I will do to a car.

However, I really should not crush the dreams of someone with a budget Genesis that is willing to try to add force induction. Hell, we can learn something about our engines from that brave individual which may surprise us in a good way.

Hell, I seen a high mileage(270000 miles) 2009 Genesis 3.8 selling for only about $2k locally, so there are some cheap 4.6 or 5.0 out there to experimented on for cheap I bet.

 

[Roc 5.0]

I guess I still don't understand, all this planning is good but don't think anything constructive will happen in the near term, when you can get 50-100 rwhp now for about $600 plus installation ( if you fear hands on mechanics) by going NOS. Yes, not as exciting when you open the hood, but more O2 is more power. The consensus is that the 5.0 motor as it exists today can take an easy 50-100 rwhp hit with no changes to any of its electronics or fuel delivery systems. And when not hitting the button, runs just like a normal 5.0. Instead of planning over the horizon on a system design that may not even work well ,( haven't even obtained a high hp ECU break through as yet), why not still do that but have fun in the now if you really feel the need for more power than the minor tweaks that are currently available?

 

[edizzle89]

I guess I still don't understand, all this planning is good but don't think anything constructive will happen in the near term, when you can get 50-100 rwhp now for about $600 plus installation ( if you fear hands on mechanics) by going NOS. Yes, not as exciting when you open the hood, but more O2 is more power. The consensus is that the 5.0 motor as it exists today can take an easy 50-100 rwhp hit with no changes to any of its electronics or fuel delivery systems. And when not hitting the button, runs just like a normal 5.0. Instead of planning over the horizon on a system design that may not even work well ,( haven't even obtained a high hp ECU break through as yet), why not still do that but have fun in the now if you really feel the need for more power than the minor tweaks that are currently available?

I know the 5.0's run pretty rich which can make it safe for a bump of nitrous but it's the timing control that isn't addressed. When you use nitrous you need to retard ignition timing, granted I dont know what the timing looks like on our engines but most n/a engines dont have boost/nitrous friendly timing curves. a 50 shot might be fine, i'd say a 100 shot would be starting to push your luck, or it might be totally fine but for anyone going this route it's good to know the potential outcome. Again tuning is a big make it/break it factor for anything past basic bolt-ons

 

[Suburbazine]

I know the 5.0's run pretty rich which can make it safe for a bump of nitrous but it's the timing control that isn't addressed. When you use nitrous you need to retard ignition timing, granted I dont know what the timing looks like on our engines but most n/a engines dont have boost/nitrous friendly timing curves. a 50 shot might be fine, i'd say a 100 shot would be starting to push your luck, or it might be totally fine but for anyone going this route it's good to know the potential outcome. Again tuning is a big make it/break it factor for anything past basic bolt-ons

The Tau uses a super nitrous-unfriendly timing curve. It's far too aggressive to put a 100shot on, even if you wet shot extra fuel in.

 

[Roc 5.0]

You don't just install a NOS system and immediately go out & dog it. You have it carefully Dyno'd so you can see what are the parameters and what is happening at various rpms and boost, then program accordingly. A good Dyno shop that has a Ford clientele would be able to do it right. Do you think it would be easier to set up a supercharger or turbo system from scratch? Right. From what I've been told, the '13+ Tau has a very strong lower end and excellent quality materials- more German than one would think.

 

[ThunderChicken]

Curious as to whom you'd recommend as a tuner for your statement as I know of no one currently coding TAU pcm's.

You don't just install a NOS system and immediately go out & dog it. You have it carefully Dyno'd so you can see what are the parameters and what is happening at various rpms and boost, then program accordingly. A good Dyno shop that has a Ford clientele would be able to do it right. Do you think it would be easier to set up a supercharger or turbo system from scratch? Right. From what I've been told, the '13+ Tau has a very strong lower end and excellent quality materials- more German than one would think.